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dandrea
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Posted: 18 November 2003 at 03:10 | IP Logged Quote dandrea

Didn't know where to put this topic, guess this is the best place. Don't know it MoG or MoG2 can use this, but, hey, it's COOL.

 

http://www.hiend3d.com/hq3x.html

 

Fernando.

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Popolon
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Posted: 18 November 2003 at 11:03 | IP Logged Quote Popolon

Not only hq3x is cool, I've been impressed also by the "smart sampling" for 3D textures!!

About the usability of this for MoG, why not? it can be added into the engine. Actually I use the rotozoom_library to zoom in/out, but adding hq2x/3x/4x can improve the quality of the scaling very much, I'm thinking in this scheme:
- For each sprite, we store 4 images: 1x, 2x, 3x and 4x. Computed using hq2x, hq3x and hq4x (only computed it needed of course). Then, when a scaling is needed, we will use the image that is closer to the factor we need, i.e. If the engine has to draw a sprite with a magnificatino of 2.2, it will take the 2x image as the basis and will magify it by a factor of 1.1

What do you think?

btw, I've to apologize since I've been unable to work in MoG2 since thursday... I hope to have time tomorrow.
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dandrea
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Posted: 19 November 2003 at 04:01 | IP Logged Quote dandrea

As hqXx is for realtime, I see few or no point in storing precalcs! :-) Just MHO.

 

Fernando.

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MP83
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Posted: 19 November 2003 at 09:53 | IP Logged Quote MP83

Impressive things indeed these Magnification filters and Smart Texture filters.  It's odd that this complicated things can be done.

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Popolon
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Posted: 19 November 2003 at 12:19 | IP Logged Quote Popolon

It just for not computting two scalations every time: one to find the closest hqXx, and another one to stretch the image to its final size.

The same story as always: benefit CPU time or benefit memory?
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jpkokkon
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Posted: 22 November 2003 at 21:06 | IP Logged Quote jpkokkon

Yea, I've seen that page earlier too, it is quite impressive.

However, until that algorithm will be implemented on hardware, it will be rather useless in common use. Maybe with shareware/freeware 2D games it may still be somewhat useful, as they usually have such a low hardware requirements that there is a lot of CPU to spare for image quality - and many of those games may still be using software rendering, unlike modern shrink-wrapped games that commonly use DirectX for both 3D and 2D - therefore using hardware images.

Also, the algorithm is "cartoon-like images only" - there would be very little point in using that filter with some photo-realistic pics. I guess it could be ok in some cases, but probably not very useful for a lot of cases.

Also, the usability is kinda limited to just scaling old low-resolution images to high resolution - after all, the question is: Why should there be a run-time scaling to get bigger images? Why not just double the original picture sizes (and then, if necessary, scale them down).
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Lars The 18Th
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Posted: 23 November 2003 at 21:42 | IP Logged Quote Lars The 18Th

I have played around a bit with HQX and it works very nice




Edited by Lars The 18Th on 24 November 2003 at 00:21
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Popolon
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Posted: 24 November 2003 at 12:24 | IP Logged Quote Popolon

Cool!!

Are those from SD snatcher or similar?

About what kpkokkon says, well, I have to agree that this is a library most suited for an emulator than for a game, but well... it acomplishes spectacular zooms!! So I can try it and see the results...
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MP83
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Posted: 24 November 2003 at 13:58 | IP Logged Quote MP83

Yep, there's no mistake that those character graphics were taken from the SD-Snatcher.  That's one the best RPG games I've ever played. I wish someone would remake it, so I could play it again...and even make some updated graphics.  I can always wish.

About the hqXx library: It will also suit for a remake game and not only on emulators if using it on the original graphics of some old pixelated game.



Edited by McBain on 24 November 2003 at 14:06
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Popolon
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Posted: 25 November 2003 at 12:58 | IP Logged Quote Popolon

Actually I've never played Snatcher, but I still remember som pictures from the MSX-club magazine I was subscribed some (many) years ago...
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MP83
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Posted: 26 November 2003 at 11:28 | IP Logged Quote MP83

Snatcher: Gotta love that one too!  One of the best Hideo Kojima's game ever, if you ask me.  I've Snatcher for the SEGA-CD Emulator, because I haven't got the original CD...yet.

Snatcher has been made for various platforms, but in opinion the SEGA-CD version is the best. But is it better than the PC-Engine version? I don't know. It depends of the graphics, sound effects, quality of speech and of course, it depends how little it has been censored for american audience.

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Popolon
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Posted: 26 November 2003 at 12:59 | IP Logged Quote Popolon

Is "Snatcher" a different game from "SD Snatcher"? I thought that the SD was just the "Super deform" tag for a modified graphics version...
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MP83
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Posted: 26 November 2003 at 14:25 | IP Logged Quote MP83



Edited by MP83 on 28 August 2008 at 06:36
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JEames
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Posted: 12 February 2004 at 16:24 | IP Logged Quote JEames

Hey, I've just found out that openMSX uses these smart scaling rotines. Check this webpage:

http://msx.vampier.net/

I looks great.

For the record, here some screenshots taken from this same page:

Looks great!



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Popolon
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Posted: 12 February 2004 at 19:10 | IP Logged Quote Popolon

Curious that you talk about this library today, since I downloaded it yesterday to make some tests...

It's impressive to scale "comic-like" graphics, but have you tried to scale a photographic image? It actually does nothing at all (it acts just like standard scaling)

However it's an interesting library. I'll think to add it to my engine...
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JEames
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Posted: 12 February 2004 at 19:32 | IP Logged Quote JEames

Well... of course a photograf won't scale. The process uses colors to identify lines. On a standard photo there's no a single pixel equal to another so the program is unable to identify any straght lines (in fact, there is no straight lines in a photograph). On a comic graphic there's allways a background and "objects" that have a clear outline... the program idetifys this outline and fills up de gaps he thinks with the outline color... the gaps he is not sure of he uses blended colors... and from there on, that's about it.

There might be some clever tricks in the code, but a computer can't "invent" resolution like it did in Blade Runner.

I think that including these scaling capabilities in the code is a good idea. Keep in mid that now many of us use 1200x1024 and in some time we might en up using 1900x1850 ... or what ever... right now I have a 19'' tft screen that looks fine at very high resolutions... so good scaling capabilities is sure a good idea.



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Popolon
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Posted: 13 February 2004 at 11:22 | IP Logged Quote Popolon

He,he in Blade Runner, they not only "invent" resolution, but moving the image can see what's BEHIND a column!!!

However, the kind of image I had tested was just a comic image, but scanned. Therefore, there was a bit of noise in the image (due to the scanner). This noise made the scaling routine to fail. I think taht it shouldn't be that hard to improve this routine by allowing a bit of "tolerance" to small changes of color.
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Vampier
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Posted: 25 January 2005 at 05:15 | IP Logged Quote Vampier

lol!!!!

I never saw this topic here before :) those screenshots are made by me to show people what a scaler actually does. These are made with openMSX in the time that the scalers where just implemented... I asked the programmers if they could implement it.. and so they did.

At this moment openMSX is the best emulator imho, I am not saying this because I'm on the openMSX team but simply because it has more features then blueMSX (which is imho #2 with a very short distance)

Anyway... gfx9000 support will be included in the new version, it is already included in the CVS version of openMSX (pre 0.5.1)

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Popolon
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Posted: 25 January 2005 at 10:08 | IP Logged Quote Popolon

openMSX? I've never tried it, I used fmsx until I discovered blueMSX... I'll have to download it.
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Nixman
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Posted: 22 February 2005 at 01:52 | IP Logged Quote Nixman

openMSX is good but it has some issues with the audio part, and this is one area where blueMSX is quite a lot better. When it comes to functionallity openMSX and blueMSX are quite equal. openMSX has support for some hardware that blueMSX doesn't support and vice versa. Most of the devices supported by only one emulator is usually quite uncommon.

Over all, blueMSX is easier to use and also more accurate but openMSX is worth checking out as well. Both these emulators are way ahead of any other emulator and the differences are quite small so it is more a matter of which one you like to work with. Both emulators are also updated quite frequently so keep an eye on new releases.

 

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